As a new podcaster, I don’t always get the tech side of things right. And that’s what happen in this interview with Susan Dean has we discussed the benefits and advantages of counseling appearing in retail settings. The sound quality of this interview was poor, but the topic was too important to not share with people who may be considering counseling in these environments. I was debating how I could still release this discussion with poor audio and well “BOOM”, a blog was created. Hopefully, you will find something useful in this discussion that will help you make informed choices about considering therapy in commercial/retail settings.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

All right. Susan Dean is back because I feel like she offers a wonderful perspective on mental health and what it looks like to be out practicing it in the field and making mental health accessible. Susan pervious joined me for a podcast and offer some great insight into mental health practice. She sent an article over from the New York times that was put out in May 2021 titled “Therapy on Aisle Seven”. Retailers are entering the mental health market and I thought, oh my goodness, this is a great follow-up for the topic that we were already discussed affordable and accessible mental health. Because it kind of goes into some other things that I know you were touching on in our last discussion. So, Susan what's been going on, how have things been going with your practice?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. Hey, Tasha, things are going well with our practice. I mean, COVID is ramping back up now with the new Delta variance. So while we were kind of gearing up to actually go back to a little more business as usual now I think we're having to reevaluate again, just cuz this strand of the virus is so much more contagious and is hitting people pretty hard. So you know, more of what we were dealing with in 2020 and here we are in 2021 kind of dealing with it again.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Absolutely. So it actually seems that something like adding mental health to retail locations and making it more accessible in retail locations, pharmacies and such would be the next step in mental health as it states in this article. It sounds like something that, you know, would be a good thing, but I know that as we both stated, you know, bringing mental health to retail spaces, appears to have there some definite red flags. And I think the article goes into some of the things we talked about last time on the episode about affordable metal health. And so when you sent this article over, I just had to open up this conversation with you again. So what came to mind as you read this article?

Speaker 2 Susan:

I think I felt really conflicted. I think at first I was kind of like, oh gosh, we're like really, really commercializing mental health. And that really has me concerned about the quality of what's being provided to the public. And then in the same breath, I also thought, but also, I mean the accessibility of it is becoming so much greater, and is that a good thing to be moving in this direction of making it more accessible? And then we start to fine-tune the quality as it enters into new platforms. So I think I kind of felt conflicted. Is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? What are the pros? What are the cons? I think one thing that particularly came to mind for me was during COVID a lot of people needed access to mental health services and a lot of providers moved online. Counseling became a lot more widely available, many states that had lower levels of providers that are licensed allowed providers in other states to provide for their residents, but that's also stopped again. So then I thought, you know, for more rural areas, this, you know, could be a really good thing to make it more, accessible. But again, it really made me question where's the quality, what's the quality control of this going to be?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Absolutely. And so maybe that's how we can sort of break this down is through by looking at the pros and the cons. So you've already mentioned some very important ones. And just so we have a little bit of an idea of who's stepping into this retail space of mental health I'm going to list the companies. So we have the major pharmacy players right now in the country. CVS, Walgreens, Rite Aid are offering a level of tele health. CVS is actually trying to offer in-person counseling clinics in Arkansas. You can go, I believe to Walmart and have access to a therapist supposedly by the end of 2021, they are trying to implement that same model in Florida and Illinois.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

So certain Walmarts in those areas will be offering mental health services. Walgreen is taking a slightly different approach. They are trying to offer telehealth appointments using Better Help. And then they're doing free online screens through Mental Health America. So I imagine that you can go online get a free mental health screen through Mental Health America, and maybe take that to a Walgreens and then access telehealth through Better Help. The other company I was surprised to read about is Albertson's. They have been semi in the space of mental health, according to the article. Albertsons includes under their umbrella, the grocery store Safeway. They're not offering therapy, but their pharmacists in 23 states are allowed to administer injectable antipsych on site to help with substance abuse.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

And the program has been ongoing on and being implemented for over a decade now. And so I paused a little bit in that because we don't know what the numbers are and we don't know how successful that's been, but that is quite interesting that they've been able to get that level of intervention done, at a pharmacist level, not to state that pharmacists aren't able to give injectables, cuz we know that they are and they're actually trained to, but to be able to do sort of on the spot antipsychotic drugs I don't know how much, how familiar they are with the patients or the people walking through the door or familiar with what the other drugs and issues that may be walking through the door with patients. But these are the types of companies that have already stepped into this space.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

And yes, there is a level of that that makes mental health more accessible. I mean, I'm sure you walk into your Walmart and it's a one-stop-shop already. And now you can get health services through their medical clinics on-site, and now you can also get mental health care. So I know you are a big proponent of access. I'm a big proponent of access. And I think we could definitely agree that in the time of COVID this does present an opportunity for people to get the help that they need. But outside of that, I have some concerns. So Susan, my first thought that came up, is if we're looking at cons and I think that you would definitely have a perspective on this one. We see CVS specifically wants to partner with social workers, at least according to this article, I don't know if that's a hundred percent true in that they may also work with mental health counselors and marriage and family therapists, but here it says in particular social workers, nurses, practitioners, pharmacists that's what stated in the article.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

So my question is Susan, what therapists are they going to find to take these jobs? Like how many therapists are really out there licensed. Cause I double-checked and all of these organizations are looking for actually licensed clinicians to come and work under them.

 

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. So there's definitely a shortage if we're talking about that. I mean, there's already a shortage when we look at what's happening right now with organizations that already exist, they're trying to hire, I mean, I'm trying to hire, and pretty much everybody that I know is trying to in this area and everybody's employed. And nobody's looking to make a job change, not in this kind of climate or environment. So yeah, that came to mind for me too, where are they actually going to get providers? And if they start to look at alternative avenues where, you know, they partner with the universities and they start doing the clinical training and partner with postgraduates that's fine, but they still need the licensed providers part of the staff because they're directly responsible for overseeing things and supervising for quality control. I'm kind of on the same page with you Tasha, I'm not really sure if the providers are there, especially with prescribers.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. So I'm not sure if this is kind of a pipe dream of putting clinicians in stores because there's a lot of demand and this big problem to solve, but where is the supply gonna come from? There's a big gap between supply and demand and especially with prescribers, it's bad enough with the counselors, the therapists, the social workers but with prescribers it’s even worse.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

And this is not an issue that's new to mental health. So even implementing these accessibility type options for people doesn't change that issue. I also don't think people know that mental health and counseling as a profession is considered to be an aging profession, meaning that most of the counselors that are licensed, that we have right now in the US, are 50 and older. I'm not sure if you've heard that statistics before, but that is something in the different graduate programs I've worked in that we've talked about. Most clinicians have been in this industry for a very long time and are retired or approaching retirement, so they do therapy part time and you also have people who go back to school at a later date. Right, and so by the time they enter this profession, they're already moving towards retirement. And then the other aspect of this is that in our profession, because we're licensed on a master's level in most states, we have a longer master's degree and we also have a longer clinical program. Most master's degrees are finished in usually about one year, sometimes two years. But our degree is right now a three-year master's degree. And if students go part-time, it takes even longer. And then just speaking for the state of Florida, then we have a minimum of a two year period in which we do our supervision or our clinicals, you know, for us as therapies, that's kind like doing a residency and then we're eligible to practice on our own. So we dedicate five years before we can even be out independently, practicing in the field with a license. And that's not even including how many years we've spent in undergrad and all of those things contribute to a shortage in mental health, along with just how many people are actually interested in entering this field.

So I’m wondering, does that mean the states start to change the structure of how they allow therapists to work across state lines? Are we going to start to have more portable licensure? Are we going to get into more, like you said, using students at a universities or are we just going to try to start using master's level therapists that aren't licensed. I’m not sure how they are going to met the demand of having  actual licensed clinicians.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. I agree with you. I think the other thing that comes up for me as you're saying all of that is when we look at the therapists in the field that are coming in now, the ones that are younger, not necessarily the ones that I’ve already had a career are going back to school for their second career because they realize they're really passionate about it, but sort of your more traditional student going straight through undergrad, straight into grad. A lot of them, at least where I'm from. I mean, I'm originally from Miami and now I live in Orlando, so I’m really only familiar with those two markets, but a lot of those kinds of practitioners are going to get agency work. And so I, I would think this retail work in CVS, Walmart, you know, all of these are gonna fall right in line with that.

Speaker 2 Susan:

A lot of what the profession sees and I don't know the exact numbers, but a lot of what we see is really high burnout too. Within a matter of like two or three years, totally burned out, ready to leave the field altogether or needing kind of a sabbatical from it. So it also feels concerning how sustainable it is in terms again, of being able to, not as a business for all of these companies, not over promise and under deliver to the public. And that's my, you know, concern. And I take that pretty seriously in my business is I don't want to promise someone something that I can't for sure deliver to them. Some I’m really transparent about that. So I think I feel concerned about that. At the same time. I mean, I think that in some ways, if we look at, let's say the example of the minute clinic at CVS I would say it's successful overall, but it also provides something fairly simple. It doesn't promise to be more than it is. And so I think if there is a way to kind of fashion it as a very low level, but a widely accessible option for mild early intervention, it could be really helpful and have a great place in society. I think I just have so many more questions. Like what are they really planning on providing?

Speaker 2 Susan:

And when I hear somebody's providing injectable antipsychotics, I'm thinking, well, that's not low level. You know, that, to me sounds like they're kind of being a triage for hospitalization of acute care.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Hospital Diversion.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. Yeah. So that, that's like really shocking to me to hear that that's, you know happening.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

So, I mean, I think that takes us into a good area. I think sometimes when people think about healthcare and mental healthcare, I think it is recognized that mental health is a part of healthcare and a very important part. That's not always considered or taken seriously, but I don't think people quite grasp the difference with mental healthcare and why it doesn't necessarily work like physical healthcare model. It's easier to go into like a min clinic with like a cold or you know, maybe you need a couple stitches or you just have a upset stomach. An ARNP or doctor can see four or five people in an hour. You go in, you get services you get help and then you can leave. But, that is never the case with what we do.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Mental health takes time. And if we work off of a minute clinic model, and you speak to a therapist, that therapist is really trying to do a good assessment of the presenting issues, the frequency of the issues, and the current problem surrounding the issue. And I'm talking about very minimal assessment maybe 30 minutes. How much of that really is helping the person and how much of that is really just us trying to go down the DSM and find some sort of diagnosis to put them under so that they can maybe see the doctor, or get treatment covered by their insurance.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Or just give them a worksheet.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Worksheets or give medication, right, and that not an effective treatment. Like, cause we don't prescribe. So if we're in that clinic and we're trying to see has many people that come or provide access to treatment, them, being able to sit in front of us and talk for a couple minutes would be considered access. But is it quality care?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Right.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Do you think there's a way to cross over into that mental health model with short conversational like crisis or first aid mental health in this current retail therapy idea?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. I know. I mean, I guess like the model that comes to mind for me that might like semi work and I, this is just me thinking in this exact moment, so we can bounce this off of each other, but is somewhat of that case management role, getting that history, getting sort of a general idea of what's going on, but then also having somebody there to say like, all right, this is the kind of help that I think is going to be best for you. Let me help you get to those resources. So that social worker, that case manager almost being like a triage, but the actual treat is not really happening on-site because you're right. I mean, you and I both know as trauma-informed therapists that the kinds of clients we work with, we're working them with them for years, once a week, sometimes twice a week, sometimes biweekly, you know, that's probably not gonna be a model that companies these companies are gonna be interested in.

Speaker 2 Susan:

You know, they're gonna be interested in, you know, probably quantity more than, quality and helping the most amount of people which means shorter intervals of time spent with patients. And we also both know that really yes, many theoretical orientations have proven to be effective, but some of the most, research that's really stood the test of time, always points back to the most effective part of treatment is the relationship between the client and the therapist. So, you know, really paying respect to that is so important. It's not about the worksheet. It's not about tools. Yes, those are important, but that most important piece is gonna be that relationship between two people and one person helping the other person.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Absolutely. Because we know that in mental health, we have to work with individuals on multiple layers. It would be a much easier job if all we had to do would is change there thinking and their mind, but that's just not how treatment works. My other thought was how comfortable are people going to be walking into the Walmart to get help? Like how private is that office setup, how friendly and safe does that office feel? How comfortable is the environment, and how quiet is the environment? Are we back to this very sterile model of mental health that we know just really doesn't work? Like the actual environment that the therapy takes place in, the way the therapist presents the tools and the other activities and things that we do within therapy and personalize the therapy to the individual sitting in front of us. Would we be able to replicate that in the Walmart, Susan?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I really think about the level of vulnerability that counseling entails. I mean, and how often a big part of counseling and effective treatment is like breaking through emotions and being able to feel and being able to cry or being able to feel your anger or process through those. Yeah. How comfortable is someone gonna feel walking through, you know, Walmart?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Susan:

You know, I think even in just a counseling office, sometimes being vulnerable enough to be in my building, you know, having to go up and down the elevator after a good cry it takes a lot of like courage and strength I think for people to do that. So I agree with you. I mean, you know, I go to counseling to myself, so me thinking about it, I'm like, yeah, that would probably be, you know, a little awkward or uncomfortable and you know, how am I gonna wrap it all backup and sort of quote, unquote, appear normal. As I walk back out of this office.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

In my mind, people are walking in and crying for 40 minutes and walking out and grabbing milk and eggs and I'm just like, um, I'm not exactly sure about this. Is this how we're really gonna start practicing therapy now. But I mean, if we are, I guess that adds new levels of convenience and accessibility to be able to get everything done in one place. And these are some of my concerns too. Visualizing the walk out of the office and just being ready to enter back in the world through a Walmart model of therapy. So, I think this leads to my next question. What is going to be charged at these locations? And thinking about accessibility and what they're actually able to offer a person, this part actually was a little disappointing because in the article they were still looking at price ranges and we're talking about just the CVS model for the minute clinics, and they will also be working with EAP programs.  But the price range they stated in the article was $129 for the initial appointment, $69 for 30 minute sessions. And then some more options in between those two ranges. And Walmart's talking about $60 for the first initial session and then a $45 for a 45 minute like follow up sessions. At those prices, they can go to a private therapist and get private one-on-one attention with different clinical interventions for around those same prices. I mean students, would probably be able to walk on their university campus and get really good counseling in a very therapeutic environment for those prices. So how do those prices still make mental health accessible? Because those prices are not any different than private therapy.

 

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. I mean, I think the Walmart prices sound lower than on average, although you're right. A university clinic would probably be even less than that. For sure. I think the accessibility piece for me that jumps out is that Walmart, CVSs, Walgreens, all these places are going, you know, are widely available geographically. They're gonna be in locations where maybe there aren't a lot of private practitioners. There's not a university campus for people to go to telehealth might not really be an option. So that's where this comes into play for me. Yeah. Those prices are not drastically lower. The Walmart ones are a little concerning. Cause I just think what is the employee who has a master's degree earning? Between student loans, debt at almost to six figures, if not more than six figures and now they're gonna be paid what, $20 an hour. Yeah. You know, that's just not sustainable with the amount of debt that they've accumulated and it's really not even respectable for where they're at in their education and their level of expertise.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

So this does not seem like maybe people would actually be getting a quality treatment from these prices through these providers. And when I say a quality treatment, I mean you know, as therapists, we all have different specialties, different modalities that we like to use and different tools in our office. So you could find a therapist that may be able to offer your child play therapy or sand tray for those prices.

You may have some therapists that are able to have biofeedback in their office. My clients had the option of coming into a yoga studio. They had access to all different types of tools and other therapist I know that work with eating disorders, they even attached a mini kitchen to their practice, to work on food quality, getting comfortable and exposure therapy. And their prices are not far off from the prices CVS is charging. But the quality and attention that they get in those settings cannot be found at CVS.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah, yeah. Therapists, offices are therapeutic you're right. Like with all these tools they've added on and the approaches they like to take. And it becomes a very sort of independent practice and the office becomes very reflective of that specific therapist. And I agree with you similarly, if these are just offices in a retail store those offices are not really going to be able to be made tailored to that therapist with all of the tools that they bring. And that's, you know, that does affect quality.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Absolutely. And I mean, I get it. I think that even in today's economy and with the rates that people are paid, even paying $45 a week for a session, can be a stretch for some people that are you know. The whole way mental health cost structure and healthcare period in this country is structured just has to be completely redone. Over long term treatment, just like you said, in the beginning, most clients, they need more than two or three sessions, you know they need weeks to a couple months and then, you know, with anybody who attaches themselves to their doctor or their therapist, they're going to want to come back and check-in. Are they going to be able to check in with a retail therapist? Can they find that Walmart therapist they spoke with two or three years from now because I know they'll be able to find Ms. Susan Dean somewhere listed online two or three years from now, even if they just need to touch base? That's the other part of this. Like how would we be able to follow up, you know, with the people that we've worked with or made a connection to you in a retail environment? I mean, do you think that these places would be able to offer that?

Speaker 2 Susan:

I don't think so. I mean, the provider becomes the retail store, not the individual provider. And just theoretically, that doesn't really make sense to me. It's kind of like I think a little bit of like a hairdresser, do you go for the salon or do you go there for your specific hairdresser? So most people really wanna be able to choose their specific providers, that's who the connection is with. It's a very personal experience. And these companies control, not create. They don't create that quality of provider. The quality of the provider comes from that individual themselves. It comes from the program they attended the school, they went to that has nothing to do with the retail store. So they're not just gonna be able to replicate and clone providers that are all same in the way that target or wherever has 10 of the same blanket in stock. It doesn't work that way.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

So they ended this article with a series of questions that an individual should maybe think about asking if they're considering a retail therapy situation. So I thought maybe we could just go over these questions and you let me know if you feel like there's anything else that a person should ask in addition to these questions when trying to pick out a therapist, whether it's in a retail space or just in a regular mental health clinic or office space. So the first question is where were you trained? Do you think there's anything else we need to add to that Susan?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Is that not the only question they're suggesting they ask, right?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

No, no, that's the first one.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe, sure. Where were you trained is a good question, but I guess a little more open-ended questioning would be better. Can you tell me a little bit about your training?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Yes, I like that. Yes, but cuz we do know that right now in the United States CACREP is considered to be the credentialing body for mental health counseling programs. That doesn't mean that other programs that therapists have graduated from are not on the level of CACREP. It's just that CACREP is something that's been introduced as a model for counseling programs. But there's a lot of controversies surrounding that, but that may be something that you might want to ask if you are really big on standards and counseling, education and supervision. So the next question is what kind of license do you have? Is there anything we can add to a question or why would it be important for someone to understand the kind of license a behavioral health person has is sitting in front of them?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of different licenses. I can tell them the years of training that they've taken, it can tell them potentially a little bit about their theoretical orientation. It can vary between a marriage and family therapist, a licensed mental health counselor, a licensed social worker, a licensed psychologist, they all have a little bit of a different kind of approach. I think a good follow up question to that is have you done additional training that have led to a certification or, you know, what kinds of like continuing education do you do or other professional development do you do?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Absolutely. And you probably need to know that if you're sitting in front of a clinician that has a Ph.D. or PsyD you need to make sure that you're not expecting them to prescribe just because they have a doctorate. Although we do know in some states as I believe in California, they do have psychologists that prescribe on a certain level, that's still something that you need to ask. That's not the case here in Florida, but I think that's definitely something to distinguish. The next one would be, what is your specialty? This kind of was a little bit into what Susan was saying in terms of additional certifications. So when someone asks like, what's your specialty, Susan what are asking that for?

Speaker 2 Susan:

I think they're trying to figure out if that particular therapist is going to fit what they're experiencing. Do you specifically specialize in the problem that I feel I'm experiencing?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Yeah. So we know that if you have trauma, you may want a therapist that has a little bit more experience in treating trauma specifically, or maybe if you have a substance use disorder, you definitely want a therapist who has some background in that. The next question is how will we monitor my progress? I think that's when the client is actually looking for maybe an understanding of how a treatment plan will be developed or how we're actually going to scale the therapy. Is there anything else that you feel someone would need to ask about how their progress is going to be monitored?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Nothing comes to mind for me off the top of my head. Honestly. I think it's a good question. People should ask that. How will I know I'm getting better or how to track this?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

I also think asking how is, my progress going to be documented. The next question is how long will my session last and how many sessions are available to me? Why do people need to ask this question?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Well, I guess it can depend on insurance for one. And it can depend on the therapist's availability as well. Right? So typically in counseling, that's a pretty collaborative decision, you know, what's going on with the person, what do they need? That becomes a real collaborative decision between the two people. And helps them with a budget, so they know. What they're getting into financially.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

The next question asks, Is there follow through if I need a referral? Do you give additional referrals out for other services or things that we see going on?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah, we can. Sometimes we do it for prescribers. I mean, typically we wouldn't suggest, or we wouldn't really like to give advice or tell somebody what to do. I mean, it'll be a process oriented conversation. But yeah, sometimes it might be if I'm evaluating somebody and let's just say, eating disorders are not in my list of specialties. And I realize this person has eating disorder behavior or maybe has an eating disorder that they're sort of not even fully aware of. My ethical obligation is I must refer them to somebody that specializes in that.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Yes and I like to tell people that as therapists if you say something that triggers an actual thought in us in terms of you needing another professional to evaluate your issue. Then therapists usually will refer you out to get that kind of evaluation. It's not always necessarily a particular person, but it's a particular type of evaluation needed. I've even referred clients out to you know, maybe get, a PT evaluation, you know because of some issue that they described or I've even referred like moms who have just given birth I've referred them to a pelvic floor specialist. I don't know what that person would be able to do, but I do know that the evaluation might be valuable in resolving their issue.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Yeah. Some people come in, you know, very distressed by an experience they're having, but we're hearing this potentially could be medical and may need a medical rule out before this whole thing may resolve. It's not really a mental health condition. It's circumstantial or situational that's causing anxiety or distress or something. But I see that a lot with sleep disorders.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Yes.

Speaker 2 Susan:

You know, just ruling out sleep disorders. It's kind of a missed thing I think. If that gets treated all these things that appear to be a mental health condition go away.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

I'm so glad you said that. Cause that's the other thing I've definitely referred out for, people need to get a sleep evaluation. Absolutely. Two more questions. And so of course, how much will this cost? Yeah, I think that's obvious we all need to go over the cost of services. Is there anything else about cost that you think people should ask?

Speaker 2 Susan:

Probably how long will I be in treatment?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

The length of the session.

Speaker 2 Susan:

Session. Yeah, not just this session, but how many sessions? The length of over all time in treatment.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

And the last question is, How will my data be stored and shared meaning the medical records. Have you ever had a client come in and ask you about how you store your medical records or how you keep them?

Speaker 2 Susan:

I haven't just because it's in the initial paperwork. But, in the intake I'll usually say everything is private. You know, all of our systems are HIPAA compliant, everything's secure, everything's electronic. And the only reason why it would be shared is if you consent or, you know, the exceptions to any of those things like a judge subpoenaing or you know, having to involuntarily hospitalize someone, if they're a danger to themselves, you know, just the exceptions to confidentiality.

Speaker 1 Tasha:

Okay. Well, those questions I think are all very relevant. I think they are all very good things to consider. If you are looking at this aspect of getting mental health treatment, I just would like to say that you know, I do believe in the pros of a system like this, but I also think it's important that we discuss the cons. There is a level of progress maybe you could say from here in organizations and companies, even thinking about approaching mental health, and recognizing that there's a need, but if you are a consumer, if you are a patient, if you are dedicating your time and your health and your money to something, you should really know your options and know all the different things that are involved with approaching therapy from this angle. That's not to say that this won't be effective for some people, and it won't be a good way to find mental health treatment in a clutch if you really need to just see someone and talk to someone. But I think that if you are someone who's looking for a long term connection and that therapeutic alliance. You really need to maybe ask yourself these questions and really sit down and think about whether or not this retail therapy perspective is going to work for you. Do you have any other ideas about that, Susan?

Speaker 2 Susan:

I think what's coming to mind for me is to encourage people to focus on not so much maybe the app that they're pursuing these services, but the person that they're pursuing them with, and not every provider is going to feel like a good fit and that is completely normal and completely okay. It is kind of like finding a relationship to be in, cause you're probably going to be in that relationship for a at least a little while. And it's okay if it doesn't feel like the right fit and you need to explore, you know, a session with somebody else to sort of feel that out. And if that doesn’t feel like a better fit for you just normalize that? I think for the consumer and for the client?

Speaker 1 Tasha:

 Thank You Susan for joining me in this topic discussion today. You can find more information about Susan Deane at agapementalhealth.org and Facebook @agapementalhealth, Instagram @womansbrain